Heavy or Light Infantry in 40k

[Manius]

What is classed as “Heavy Infantry” these days? Is it just the class of support equipment still?

I breech the question here as the definition is different in 40k. Light Infantry are physically “light” in that they have minimal body armour and field standard lasguns.

Heavy Infantry tend to be carapace (or equivalent) armoured and have a higher proportion of Hellguns and more specialist weapons. To me the vast majority of Imperial Guard regiments could be classed as Mechanised Light Infantry, mobile but lightly armed and armoured.

The trouble is that many of the novels that refer to Imperial Guard units in any detail seem to refer to a far higher proportion (than I first thought) of regiments making use of carapace or similar armour.

So, up for discussion, what is the 40k definition of Light or Heavy Infantry?

Is LI, flak armoured, lasgun using, mechanised infantry supported by chimera variants?

Is HI, carapace armoured, hellgun using, mechanised (or dropped) infantry supported by tanks?

We’ve maintained that the 9th is “Light Infantry” and I believe we’ve built our kit around that convincingly, but would a Heavy Infantry version be possible? Isn’t it just Stormtroopers?

Throw those comments out there!

[Gor/Strauss]

Well Cadians would be considered 'Heavy Inf'. They have Carapace armour and carry lasguns.

I would classify Stormies as Commando's rather than Heavy Inf. There are too many of them as it were for them to be Special Forces, but they are suitably better trained and equipped to be called Commado's imo.

I think we have Light Inf bang on

[john]

Storm troopers tend to heavy armour though don't they? they are Elite assault troops and Commando's are stealth troops more like the Tanith.

[Gor/Strauss]

Tanith's were Light Inf I believe

Elite Assault..Commando's..more or less the same thing no?

[Lex]

I'd say the 9th and the Tanith would be Light Infantry, with light armour, standard weapons and Chimera support (with mechanised infantry).

Heavy Infantry would have heavier armour (carapace?), but still with standard weaponry, albeit with a slightly higher proportion of heavy weapons, like stubbers, grenade launchers, krak missile launchers and lascannons. If you outfit them with full carapace armour and hellguns, then they just become stormtroopers and more elite troops. It's a fine line, but there is definately a line. Carapace breastplate with standard equipment (possibly a heavy weapon) would be heavy infantry, but add in the arm and leg armour with a hellgun, and they become a stormtrooper.

[john]

May 14, 2008 21:20:53 GMT Gor/Strauss said:

Tanith's were Light Inf I believe

Elite Assault..Commando's..more or less the same thing no?

Not as I understand the terms no, Commando's are infiltration specialists wheras Assault troops are about as subtle as a Baneblade through a window.
For Commando's think SBS, assault think US Marines

[cybersoldier]

I see it this way.

Scalpel; Tanith, Catachan and Tallarn = Light Infantry = British infantry

Sledgehammer; 50th Volpone, Cadian and Mordian = Heavy Infantry = USMC

Multi-tool; Stormtroopers = Commandos = Royal Marines and US Army Rangers

Light infantry would put more emphasis on subtlety and skirmishing tactics to infiltrate an enemy line and recce it before an attack. In layman’s terms think the 95th Foot.

Heavy infantry would have tighter uniform discipline, fight in denser formations, use heavier weapons and be used more as a 'line breaker'. In layman’s terms think the 1st Foot Guards.

Commandos can fight as either as heavy or light due to their superior training and are given the equipment appropriate to the job. Before anyone leaps on me for this let me remind you that in WW2 the Royal Marines fought raiding actions and the US Army Rangers stormed Omaha beach. In the 80s the Royal Marines fought some gruelling battles in the Falklands many of which came down to hand to hand fighting and the US Army Rangers where dropped onto Grenada to recce the enemy forces before the main assault hit.

Rebuttal?

[aitch]

Nope, I think you've got it dude.

Pretty much agree with cybersoldier. Light v heavy is really a matter of support and numbers of troops, plus the mentality with which they fight.
In 40k terms, a lot of regiments are a bit 'Napoleonic' and fight in huge numbers where massed ranks and artillery count for more than personal initiative and 'maneouver warfare'. They form up and paste the enemy until they die. I guess the mentality of the officer class and local tradition also dictate how an individual regiment will fight. A regiment that is going to be more 'static' in the way it fights is likely to wear heavier carapace armour than the flak worn by knees-bent-running-around troops.

I've always seen the 9th Scarovar as light infantry, operating in smaller numbers using skirmishing tactics - We'd be the '95th Rifles' scurrying around the flanks of the Mordian Iron Guard ranks so to speak. But, with the addition of Chimeras, the regiment would be able to move about and fulfil the 'skirmisher' role in more modern context (if that makes sense).

OK, mounting my hobby horse now: The Commandos are a bit of a personal thing as I'm in a Re-enactment group that portrays No 4 Commando 1940-45. Commando groups were raised from all arms of the armed services during the war, not just the Royal Marines. The RM Commandos weren't raised until 1942. The original Commandos (No 1 through No 10, raised summer 1940) were all Army volunteers, and there were also Royal Naval Commandos and the RAF Servicing Commando. All Commando units except the RM Commandos were disbanded in 1946. In 40/41 a nucleus of volunteers from No 2 Commando became the first recruits in to the fledgling Parachute Regiment. (Paras don't like being reminded they came from the Commandos...)

As Cybersoldier says, they fulfilled a number of roles, doing the whole light raiding thing (with various degrees of success) in the early days. Early war Commandos lacked vehicles and heavy weapons teams (Vickers MMGs, 3 inch mortars), so by 40k standards they'd be 'light infantry'. By the time D-Day came around, they were re-organised as 1st Special Service Brigade' and became in 40k terms 'Heavy Infantry'. Commando support units were formed with, in 40k terms, autocannon, mortars etc, but they still lacked vehicles (unless they could nick them). In essence, the WW2 Commando's weren't 'special forces' as we'd understand it now; they were very well trained assault infantry. Whether you can apply that analogy to the 9th I don't know. I'd associate them more as Stormtroopers like most of you guys have. If you're going in to SF territory, we're heading towards Astartes, Assasins and so on.

Aaand, dismount hobby horse.

H/Stamper

[Manius]

Glad I opened this thread, I like to see active discussion on the forum.

I like the opinions here and I have to agree that the 9th is far more like LI and quite close (I assume) in operation to the regular British infantry (have to say pre-Afghanistan/cold war era as some significant changes have been made in recent years).

Reasonably small units (Platoon level) would be transported to key points, off loaded and given routes/patrol areas to cover from a central temporary OP. Equipped with (in theory) enough supplies and ammunition to last 3 days to a week at the OP units would be sent out on these routes with 24hr supplies.

From a “war” aspect, this would be to produce probing attacks on enemy lines whilst not giving the enemy a chance to pin and destroy the greater number of troops in any one location. Even though the units are on foot they have good communications to the local OP and via that to Company HQ further back, when resistance was found it was assessed and additional support (initially via artillery or air support) would be called in if the resistance was judged to be greater than half the size of the active unit at that location.

Additional manpower was first available from other units in the area doing similar sweeps and then from the local OP. Should the level of enemy resistance remain high the units would withdraw, often moving local OP points as well, to regroup and notify Company HQ of the enemy disposition so it could be dealt with by a concerted Company level and combined arms action.

This is where I see the likes of the 9th and Tanith. However, I feel the Tallarns are different again in that they are even more “light” and mobile and would rarely be used in even a marginally robust way unless forced. To me there the desert version of Catachans – hit and run tactics, booby traps, trap springing almost guerrilla tactics.

Forces like the Cadians and Mordians are deployed as described above – enmass and with far more direct and obvious support from heavy weapons and armour.

Light infantry are ideal for more open warfare where the front lines are less defined and fluid. They’re far less suited to urban or static warfare (hence the organisational changes made in recent years due to the change in perceived enemies).

[Gor/Strauss]

Can't forget the largest tank battle in Imperial History happened on Tallarn...so they are capable of sledgehammering when they want to.

[Manius]

I forget but I thought they were tank regiments from off-world rather than Tallarn Tank regiments? Apologise if I'm wrong in that though.

I also get the impression from the novels that regiments are never "combined arms" regiments. For example - you raise an Infantry regiment then you have a regiment that consists of Infantry with only minor direct support units: Chimera variants mainly.

Tank regiment = Tanks etc

So, you don’t get any Regiment that has Both Infantry AND Leman Russ’s for example.

I think the theory behind this is that the regiments can become more specialised and therefore better at doing the core duties that the regiment can perform, normally this would be death (you can’t just field Tanks without infantry!) but as zones of operation are always covered by several regiments which, together, make a combined forces operation, you have the best of both world.

Specialisation and its greater experience AND combined operations joint cover.

[L/Cpl Elliott]

I have heard of 'mixed' regiments, that are mainly infantry (light or heavy) sometimes with transports, but always with a battle tank in support of every platoon, and a company of tanks to provide an armoured spearhead to assaults. There aren't many mentions of these, but you see them occasionally (eg. Imperial Armour 1, metions a Catachan plt. using a thunderer as the platoon support tank.)

[furey]

the light/heavy infantry thing is just in the context of other units in modern warfare. the colossal and sometimes wierd variety in guard units throws the light/heavy comparison of units to the winds in my mind. imo you just wouldnt be able to shoehorn regiments from literaly all across the galaxy into those two brackets.

[SGT Lucius Praal]

from my understanding the 9th are right on the line between light and heavy inf, the reason being is the armor most of the group will be wearing, i would class this as a marker towards the heavy inf side but then again we will have less support weapons so that woud put us in the light inf side but this is open for discussion and only my oppinion

[drezha]

I wouldn't class Cadians as heavy infantry.

Heavy infantry, I would class, as infantry all wearing carapace armour. But from the cadian models you can see they are only wearing flak armour and helmets. From memory, there's no mention of the Tanith wearing armour what so ever.

Therefore, I would have the following classes..
Light - Tanith, Tallern (little to no armout) Admittled still have 5+ save in 40K
Standard - Cadian - Flak armour clearly modelled
Heavy - Volpine 10th Company - All in Carapace armour.

However, I feel the support can affect wether they are heavy or light. Tanith have no support but still have a large proportion of special and heavy weapons (rockets and flamers mainly). However, I see heavy troops using less heavy weapons and relying on support from chimera's and tanks. However I can also see a small light infatry attack with heavy armour in support.

IMHO, I believe IG armies are just infantry or just tanks. Maybe a smattering of chimeras in both to add some support but judging the rest of the fluff, the armies/chapters/navy were all split upto avoid the Horus Heresy happening again and make it harder for one bunch to get uppity and attack the Imperium. Hence why I think an infantry regiment would be hard pressed to have heavy tanks with it except for in a crusade etc but then they'd not be in the same regiment. Of course I see no trouble with an armoured company and infantry regiment from the same planet.

Therefore I would say Scarovian are a standard infantry regiment, maybe more geared towards the stealth/drop troop side of think due to lack of supporting chimeras and the like.