Rules Discussion

[Manius]

General discussion about Grim Darkness LRP rules set

[mihangelion]

what are we gonna do about weapon ranges?

one idea i had about the range of weapons was to limit the use of Tightbore to the longer range. e.g. a certain grade of tightbore might be allowed to the Tau Pulse Rifles since they are meant to out range lasguns etc and obviously sniper rifles the longest range.

[slimshady]

Well, the only way you end up with vastly differing ranges is having a wide spectrum of FPS bands.

328fps is pretty much the same across the board and as tightbores make a tiny difference (literally, a few CM unless the FPS changes drastically) so my 2p is that we just stick with what we have.

What are the nominated field limits anyway?

[Manius]

Slim said it - Airsoft weapons depend on FPS for range. Barrel lengths and "tightness" really only affects accuracy.

I feel the engagement ranges are acceptable for the system, balancing the limits of the materials we have and within the rules for weapon use.

- Note - PENDING: Inclusion of rules for Autoguns and normal stubbers.

[slimshady]

I think that accurately phys-repping the weapons and armour will be more than enough for most people - certainly I can't think of any workable solution for weapons ranges without having a ref in the middle of every firefight tell you that you can't shoot due to being out of range and who really wants that level of Battleboarding to break up the flow of a game?

While it would be "nice" to have realistic ranges as per the tabletop that would mean (for example) Lasguns on 328fps, Pulse Rifles on about 400 (Hello Section 5!!) and I'm sure that I have a couple of springs for my Sniper Rifles to take them to near 600..... (the last two are certainly no-no's for the UK!).

[Manius]

I am considering 500fps for bolt-action, snipers...at least any would be "Mkoll's" can reach out and touch someone (minimum engagement range of 20mts).

[slimshady]

Might I suggest that MED is based on BB weight? In order to hit a target with 1j or less of energy using a .3 or heavier BB the MED is 25m (thats how long it takes to shed the initial 2.3j of energy) and for lighter than .3g its 20m (still too close in my opinion but I don't see us having the same issue as a typical Site's Walk-on day )

[Manius]

A considered argument. Counter to that we could ensure that BB's above 0.25g are not used but I think I will defer to those more within the sniper vien on this issue before passing any H&S related ruling on it. Perhaps 500fps is too powerful for our requirements even?

[slimshady]

Tricky Subject - there are a few pro's and con's to consider.

In a purely legal sense 500fps "might" be enough to cause Lethal Injury and shooting someone with a 500fps Bolt Action (A 500fps AEG IS an illegal section 5) "could" be considered to be assault...however its a limit that has (with a few exceptions) been observed without incident for a long while in the UK Airsoft Scene and the legallity of it has never been tested.

This is in part due to the fact that most sites with that limit are quite careful about adjudicating players with those rifles, and also because it would (again in theory) be a Lethal Injury only via a penetrating injury to the eye socket and everyone wears eye protection.

It could happen, but even abroad with limits much higher than this (Continential Europe has been known to have a 180m/s limit for a long while - its even higher in some of the Eastern Countries such as the Phillipines) there hasn't ever been a single airsoft fatality and its commonly accepted that the majority of injuries occour with AEG's at close range which I think is why so many sites are able to get insurance and continue to allow 500fps on that basis.

In A Scientific Sense - the heaver the ammo the more slowly it sheds energy and the more stable the BB is at longer range which is of course exactly why snipers choose to use it. I've never really viewed the MED as an ideal measure (ask your average airsofter to judge 25m ;p) but in all my time as a sniper practically everyone I have ever spoken to engages at far further than that range (I won't shoot at all under 45m because thats AEG range in my opinion) and therefore are actually hitting targets with less energy than an AEG would produce at 10m.

Its "as safe" as its going to be although my position on MED's is a little harsher than most. 20m is the minimum for anything under .3g, and 25 for those above .3g. What I'd like to see if 25m for
the former and 30m for the latter simply to allow some safe margin but thats a PoV most pertinent to Skirmish Sites, rather than more specialised needs such as ours.

Is it too powerful for Grim Darkness?

I don't know how many people play snipers, or were thinking about snipers but (again, I'll stress a point I've made on ASCUK a number of times - I do probably worry too much) from a pure phys-rep Point of View Bolt Action rifles aren't used much so if you do want to portray a sniper (Eldar Ranger, Guard Marksman, Vindicare, whatever) then you're going to be using an AEG and to get a range thats much beyond that of a Lasgun (.2g @ 328fps) you'll need to run it at least up to 377fps - and beyond that you're talking about a) A Section 5 Firearm and B) One that is unable to be used on pratically any other site.

I know F&O have allowed them in the past, as have FFZ (I have an MSG-90 and snipe there frequently) and Ground Zero but in reallity who wants to spend money converting their HK variant to look like a long las and then upgrading it/downgrading it as appropriate to the site they play on.

So (I'll get to the point sooner or later, I promise) either do one of three things:

1) Allow Bolt Actions in play with the usual "Be Bloody Careful" Caveat and give snipers a longer range to give them the "Hand of Larkin" advantage.
2) Just allow snipers to fulfil OTHER roles within the mandate of that skill set (Observation, Stealth) and allow them to use a 328fps AEG the same as everyone else (Stealth abilities might make an addition to the Tier Skills?)
3) Let them use whatever they want as long as it looks "correct", they're a responsible player, and don't worry too much about the potential "what ifs" that I've alluded to earlier.

Personally?

Option 2 and Possibly 1. The "Stealth" ability could be very handy if Role-played convincingly, and doesn't actually require an upgraded AEG to pull off - no health and safety concerns, and while "invisible" players can be laughable it has worked in other systems. 1 allows the use of bolt-actions to give the longer ranage but...it doesn't "feel" particularly correct simply from the appearance of the rifle.

Quick thought:

Adding stealth as a skill (regardless of the points cost) seems to "feel" more in keeping with the System. In opposition there could be an "observation" skill for scouts (Also useful for spotting minute details and traps etc) as well as the use of an Auspex - OR then again it could be another complication thats not needed......

I suppose that if an adjustment to the skill-set were viable then you could also allow the use of a skill to allow long-range shots without actually making the shot in that you can have a bag of beads and key their colours to the success of the shot with higher skill levels allowing redraws to alter the outcome....but again, there shadow of "intensive battle boarding" is looming over the discussion ;p

Over to you mate, I'm sure people will be only too happy to go with whatever you decide.

[Manius]

I have to agree with your caution on the matter. I am unsure how to deal with it currently but I’m bending towards fps limits of:

AEG / Gas and any RiF capable of automatic fire = 350fps +/- 5%

Single action rifles = 400fps

Whilst 400fps seems quite low, I feel the extra 50fps makes a good enough difference.

Skills – Currently the rules system is heavily balanced towards what I would term an “Advanced Skirmish” rules system. There are actually few of what I would call true Role Play skills.

However, I would not want to “rule” for Stealth. To me, you can either play an effectively stealthy scout or you can’t. Rules systems where you can purchase a Stealth skill to me just seem silly?? Ok, so OOC I can see and hear him but IC I’m supposed to ignore him crashing about in the forest around me?

Nope, not going to happen.

What I WILL do is eventually expand the skill selection and list to include Role Playable Scout (and other) based skills that can be used effectively by anyone without putting too much weight onto other players suspension of reality.

We currently have Radio and Map making skills and if you were a Scout/Sniper I’d expect you to take these as a minimum with perhaps an explosives skill to add to that. Add a Guillie suit and some actual practical stealth and field craft (which can be learnt) then you have a Scout.

Lots of Role Play skills will only be permitted via the Long Service Award system but will be published so people know what they can attain and aim for.

I don’t want to over lammie the system props but I also wish to promote the sort of RP that allows lateral thinking rather than literal thinking. I have seen too many events bogged down by literal thinking and I want to avoid that if I can.

[Manius]

BTW I see no reason why a dedicated pattern long-las sniper variant gun can't be a bolt action.

They're never fired auto in the literature I've read so far.

[slimshady]

Abnett has been guilty of saying that they use one "Hotshot" per power cell, AND also saying that the Power Cells have limited shots (Read Honour Guard particularly the scene were Cuu and Larkin are doing some impromptu target practice)

The whole stealth skills set was purely an idea - I'm always wary of people using "Real World" skills in character and role-playing through it rather than having the actual skill IC but having to play being stealthy is fine and does solve a lot of Issues - I just wanted to throw the idea out there for consideration because (for example) like I said, it has been used a fair amount elsewhere (and of course if I ever play a scout its going to please me greatly lol )

350+5% does come quite close to 400 (just shy of 370) and the practical difference between the two is very little unfortunately BUT with the above caveat in mind then a stealthy player should STILL have an advantage if they use their brain (a 400fps Bolt Action is on the whole a lot more accurate than any AEG - as well as being quieter)....and it avoids any issues with 500fps if people are unsure about it.

[Cadet Commissar]

Slim, Purely on a practical side, Is it possible get a futeristic Bolt Action sniper rifle or is the L96 the most futeristic looking available(I know one was used in firefly)?

Using Gaunt's Ghosts as the mainstay discription on kit, surely the Long las has to look more or less like a G36/SL9 and the models for other races leave you with the same problem.

[slimshady]

There are a couple but they're mostly extremely rare/expensive (Ashai Blazer and the like) or Custom made. There is an alternative if you want one "off the shelf":

www.wgcshop.com/pcart/shopper.php?itm=SK-ACC-VSRSS_srch_stock

Looking at the way most Sniper Rifles in 40k are portrayed then yeah, you're right - its pretty much down to an H&K AEG (G36, SL8/9, MSG etc) with some external custom work. Not really a big concern I suppose and with drop-in gearbox replacements its fairly easy to upgrade/downgrade....but it does depend on if you want to spend the money.

[Cadet Commissar]

Thats preeeetty. Dear Santa....

Anyhow, Would temporerally pushing a single shot AEG upto close to 500fps make it a Sec.5. Or would it still count as single shot?

I know the upgrade is simple enough in thiery but how easy is it in practise, not to mention, what is to stop you "Fanning" and giving you full Auto?